The distinctions you make are helpful and so needed. A little knowledge of how the church fathers (let alone the scriptures) understood concupiscence pretty much wrecks so many of the liberal 'arguments' for celibate SSA, etc, being put forward today. "Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being..." (Psalm 51:6a)
"When talking about sin, and in particular certain sins which the modern world insist are no sin at all, it has become popular for Christians fighting a rearguard action to say, 'Well, we are not saying it is a sin to be tempted!' But, yes, we are. Or we should be. The church typically has. Indeed there are dozens of doctrines that go into, and hang on, the idea that, yes, it is a sin to be tempted. Properly understood."
Is what you wrote above in congruence with Hebrews 4:14-16?:
"[14] Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. [15] For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. [16] Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (ESV)"
Hebrews seems to be saying that Jesus was tempted, yet without sin. I am curious as to how you would engage this scripture passage. Thank you in advance.
This is why I try to define the various different types of 'temptation'. So, for example, does anyone believe that this is what happened to Christ:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James tells us very clearly not:
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Christ's temptations were not that kind of temptations, but the kind that we see in the wilderness... where Satan came up to try to tempt him, to tell him to do some evil things. But, in the James sense, these things did not 'tempt' him :)
There is a problem with using fallible human words to describe truth.
No, they are the same word. It is the subject that is different.
One temptation might be said to be reflexive: you tempt yourself (James). The other has the subject of another: The pharisees tempted Jesus, Satan tempted Jesus.
Mat 4:1 Then G5119 was Jesus G2424 led up G321 of G5259 the G3588 Spirit G4151 into G1519 the G3588 wilderness G2048 to be tempted G3985 of G5259 the G3588 devil. G1228
Mat 4:3 And G2532 when the G3588 tempter G3985 came G4334 to him, G846 he said, G2036 If G1487 thou be G1488 the Son of G5207 God, G2316 command G2036 that G2443 these G3778 stones G3037 be made G1096 bread. G740
Mat 16:1 ( G2532 ) The G3588 Pharisees G5330 also G2532 with the Sadducees G4523 came, G4334 and tempting G3985 desired G1905 him G846 that he would shew G1925 them G846 a sign G4592 from G1537 heaven. G3772
Mat 19:3 The G3588 Pharisees G5330 also G2532 came G4334 unto him, G846 tempting G3985 him, G846 and G2532 saying G3004 unto him, G846 ( G1487 ) Is it lawful G1832 for a man G444 to put away G630 his G848 wife G1135 for G2596 every G3956 cause? G156
Mat 22:18 But G1161 Jesus G2424 perceived G1097 their G846 wickedness, G4189 and said, G2036 Why G5101 tempt G3985 ye me, G3165 ye hypocrites? G5273
Mat 22:35 Then G2532 one G1520 of G1537 them, G846 which was a lawyer, G3544 asked G1905 him a question, tempting G3985 him, G846 and G2532 saying, G3004
Mrk 1:13 And G2532 he was G2258 there G1563 in G1722 the G3588 wilderness G2048 forty G5062 days, G2250 tempted G3985 of G5259 Satan; G4567 and G2532 was G2258 with G3326 the G3588 wild beasts; G2342 and G2532 the G3588 angels G32 ministered G1247 unto him. G846
Mrk 8:11 And G2532 the G3588 Pharisees G5330 came forth, G1831 and G2532 began G756 to question with G4802 him, G846 seeking G2212 of G3844 him G846 a sign G4592 from G575 heaven, G3772 tempting G3985 him. G846
Mrk 10:2 And G2532 the G3588 Pharisees G5330 came to G4334 him, and asked G1905 him, G846 ( G1487 ) Is it lawful G1832 for a man G435 to put away G630 his wife? G1135 tempting G3985 him. G846
Mrk 12:15 Shall we give, G1325 or G2228 shall we not G3361 give? G1325 But G1161 he, G3588 knowing G1492 their G846 hypocrisy, G5272 said G2036 unto them, G846 Why G5101 tempt G3985 ye me? G3165 bring G5342 me G3427 a penny, G1220 that G2443 I may see G1492 it.
Luk 4:2 Being forty G5062 days G2250 tempted G3985 of G5259 the G3588 devil. G1228 And G2532 in G1722 those G1565 days G2250 he did( G3756 ) eat G5315 nothing: G3762 and G2532 when they G846 were ended, G4931 he afterward G5305 hungered. G3983
Luk 11:16 And G1161 others, G2087 tempting G3985 him, sought G2212 of G3844 him G846 a sign G4592 from G1537 heaven. G3772
Luk 20:23 But G1161 he perceived G2657 their G848 craftiness, G3834 and said G2036 unto G4314 them, G846 Why G5101 tempt G3985 ye me? G3165
Jhn 6:6 And G1161 this G5124 he said G3004 to prove G3985 him: G846 for G1063 he G846 himself knew G1492 what G5101 he would G3195 do. G4160
Jhn 8:6 ( G1161 ) This G5124 they said, G3004 tempting G3985 him, G846 that G2443 they might have G2192 to accuse G2723 him. G846 But G1161 Jesus G2424 stooped G2955 down, G2736 and with his finger G1147 wrote G1125 on G1519 the G3588 ground, G1093 as though he heard them not.
Act 5:9 Then G1161 Peter G4074 said G2036 unto G4314 her, G846 How G5101 is it that G3754 ye G5213 have agreed together G4856 to tempt G3985 the G3588 Spirit G4151 of the Lord? G2962 behold, G2400 the G3588 feet G4228 of them which have buried G2290 thy G4675 husband G435 are at G1909 the G3588 door, G2374 and G2532 shall carry thee out. G1627 G4571
Act 15:10 Now G3568 therefore G3767 why G5101 tempt G3985 ye God, G2316 to put G2007 a yoke G2218 upon G1909 the G3588 neck G5137 of the G3588 disciples, G3101 which G3739 neither G3777 our G2257 fathers G3962 nor G3777 we G2249 were able G2480 to bear? G941
Act 16:7 After they were come G2064 to G2596 Mysia, G3465 they assayed G3985 to go G4198 into G2596 Bithynia: G978 but G2532 the G3588 Spirit G4151 suffered G1439 them G846 not. G3756
Act 24:6 Who G3739 also G2532 hath gone about G3985 to profane G953 the G3588 temple: G2411 whom G3739 we took, G2902 and G2532 would G2309 have judged G2919 according G2596 to our G2251 law. G3551
1Co 7:5 Defraud G650 ye not G3361 one the other, G240 except G1509 G302 it be with G1537 consent G4859 for G4314 a time, G2540 that G2443 ye may give yourselves G4980 to fasting G3521 and G2532 prayer; G4335 and G2532 come together G4905 again, G3825 that G2443 Satan G4567 tempt G3985 you G5209 not G3361 for G1223 your G5216 incontinency. G192
1Co 10:9 Neither G3366 let us tempt G1598 Christ, G5547 as G2531 some G5100 of them G846 also G2532 tempted, G3985 and G2532 were destroyed G622 of G5259 serpents. G3789
1Co 10:13 There hath no G3756 temptation G3986 taken G2983 you G5209 but G1508 such as is common to man: G442 but G1161 God G2316 is faithful, G4103 who G3739 will not G3756 suffer G1439 you G5209 to be tempted G3985 above G5228 that G3739 ye are able; G1410 but G235 will with G4862 the G3588 temptation G3986 also G2532 make G4160 a way to escape, G1545 that ye G5209 may be able G1410 to bear G5297 it.
2Co 13:5 Examine G3985 yourselves, G1438 whether G1487 ye be G2075 in G1722 the G3588 faith; G4102 prove G1381 your own selves. G1438 ( G2228 ) Know G1921 ye not G3756 your own selves, G1438 ( G2228 ) how that G3754 Jesus G2424 Christ G5547 is G2076 in G1722 you, G5213 except G1509 ye be G2075 reprobates? G96
Gal 6:1 Brethren, G80 if G1437 a man G444 be( G2532 ) overtaken G4301 in G1722 a G5100 fault, G3900 ye G5210 which are spiritual, G4152 restore G2675 such an one G5108 in G1722 the spirit G4151 of meekness; G4236 considering G4648 thyself, G4572 lest G3361 thou G4771 also G2532 be tempted. G3985
1Th 3:5 For this cause, G1223 G5124 when I G2504 could no longer G3371 forbear, G4722 I sent G3992 to know G1097 your G5216 faith, G4102 lest by some means G3381 the G3588 tempter G3985 have tempted G3985 you, G5209 and G2532 our G2257 labour G2873 be G1096 in G1519 vain. G2756
Heb 2:18 For G1063 in G1722 that G3739 he G846 himself hath suffered G3958 being tempted, G3985 he is able G1410 to succour G997 them that are tempted. G3985
Heb 3:9 When G3757 your G5216 fathers G3962 tempted G3985 me, G3165 proved G1381 me, G3165 and G2532 saw G1492 my G3450 works G2041 forty G5062 years. G2094
Heb 4:15 For G1063 we have G2192 not G3756 an high priest G749 which cannot G1410 G3361 be touched with the feeling of G4834 our G2257 infirmities; G769 but G1161 was in G2596 all points G3956 tempted G3985 like as G2596 G3665 we are, yet without G5565 sin. G266
Heb 11:17 By faith G4102 Abraham, G11 when he was tried, G3985 offered up G4374 Isaac: G2464 and G2532 he that had received G324 the G3588 promises G1860 offered up G4374 his only begotten G3439 son,
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, G3034 they were sawn asunder, G4249 were tempted, G3985 were slain G599 with G1722 the( G5408 ) sword: G3162 they wandered about G4022 in G1722 sheepskins G3374 and G2532 goatskins;( G122 ) G1192 being destitute, G5302 afflicted, G2346 tormented; G2558
Jas 1:13 Let no man G3367 say G3004 when he is tempted, G3985 I am tempted G3985 of G575 God: G2316 for G1063 God G2316 cannot be tempted G2076 G551 with evil, G2556 neither G1161 tempteth G3985 he G848 any man: G3762
Jas 1:14 But G1161 every man G1538 is tempted, G3985 when he is drawn away G1828 of G5259 his own G2398 lust, G1939 and G2532 enticed. G1185
Rev 2:2 I know G1492 thy G4675 works, G2041 and G2532 thy G4675 labour, G2873 and G2532 thy G4675 patience, G5281 and G2532 how G3754 thou canst G1410 not G3756 bear G941 them which are evil: G2556 and G2532 thou hast tried G3985 them which say G5335 they are G1511 apostles, G652 and G2532 are G1526 not, G3756 and G2532 hast found G2147 them G846 liars: G5571
Rev 2:10 Fear G5399 none G3367 of those things which G3739 thou shalt G3195 suffer: G3958 behold, G2400 the G3588 devil G1228 shall G3195 cast G906 some of G1537 you G5216 into G1519 prison, G5438 that G2443 ye may be tried; G3985 and G2532 ye shall have G2192 tribulation G2347 ten G1176 days: G2250 be G1096 thou faithful G4103 unto G891 death, G2288 and G2532 I will give G1325 thee G4671 a crown G4735 of life. G2222
Rev 3:10 Because G3754 thou hast kept G5083 the G3588 word G3056 of my G3450 patience, G5281 I also G2504 will keep G5083 thee G4571 from G1537 the G3588 hour G5610 of temptation, G3986 which shall G3195 come G2064 upon G1909 all G3650 the G3588 world, G3625 to try G3985 them G3588 that dwell G2730 upon G1909 the G3588 earth. G1093
The distinctions you make are helpful and so needed. A little knowledge of how the church fathers (let alone the scriptures) understood concupiscence pretty much wrecks so many of the liberal 'arguments' for celibate SSA, etc, being put forward today. "Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being..." (Psalm 51:6a)
I’m still working on Part II. I have the ideas, but the writing is hard. Let me know if you would like to see the draft, perhaps you have some ideas.
Great verse.
Hello, Von. You wrote:
"When talking about sin, and in particular certain sins which the modern world insist are no sin at all, it has become popular for Christians fighting a rearguard action to say, 'Well, we are not saying it is a sin to be tempted!' But, yes, we are. Or we should be. The church typically has. Indeed there are dozens of doctrines that go into, and hang on, the idea that, yes, it is a sin to be tempted. Properly understood."
Is what you wrote above in congruence with Hebrews 4:14-16?:
"[14] Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. [15] For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. [16] Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (ESV)"
Hebrews seems to be saying that Jesus was tempted, yet without sin. I am curious as to how you would engage this scripture passage. Thank you in advance.
This is why I try to define the various different types of 'temptation'. So, for example, does anyone believe that this is what happened to Christ:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James tells us very clearly not:
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Christ's temptations were not that kind of temptations, but the kind that we see in the wilderness... where Satan came up to try to tempt him, to tell him to do some evil things. But, in the James sense, these things did not 'tempt' him :)
There is a problem with using fallible human words to describe truth.
I hope this helps, if not, feel free to ask more.
This is helpful, thanks. Is the word for "temptation" in James a different Greek word than the one in Hebrews?
Or sorry, they are verbs in the English... not nouns. But I don't know about the Greek syntax. :)
No, they are the same word. It is the subject that is different.
One temptation might be said to be reflexive: you tempt yourself (James). The other has the subject of another: The pharisees tempted Jesus, Satan tempted Jesus.
Mat 4:1 Then G5119 was Jesus G2424 led up G321 of G5259 the G3588 Spirit G4151 into G1519 the G3588 wilderness G2048 to be tempted G3985 of G5259 the G3588 devil. G1228
Mat 4:3 And G2532 when the G3588 tempter G3985 came G4334 to him, G846 he said, G2036 If G1487 thou be G1488 the Son of G5207 God, G2316 command G2036 that G2443 these G3778 stones G3037 be made G1096 bread. G740
Mat 16:1 ( G2532 ) The G3588 Pharisees G5330 also G2532 with the Sadducees G4523 came, G4334 and tempting G3985 desired G1905 him G846 that he would shew G1925 them G846 a sign G4592 from G1537 heaven. G3772
Mat 19:3 The G3588 Pharisees G5330 also G2532 came G4334 unto him, G846 tempting G3985 him, G846 and G2532 saying G3004 unto him, G846 ( G1487 ) Is it lawful G1832 for a man G444 to put away G630 his G848 wife G1135 for G2596 every G3956 cause? G156
Mat 22:18 But G1161 Jesus G2424 perceived G1097 their G846 wickedness, G4189 and said, G2036 Why G5101 tempt G3985 ye me, G3165 ye hypocrites? G5273
Mat 22:35 Then G2532 one G1520 of G1537 them, G846 which was a lawyer, G3544 asked G1905 him a question, tempting G3985 him, G846 and G2532 saying, G3004
Mrk 1:13 And G2532 he was G2258 there G1563 in G1722 the G3588 wilderness G2048 forty G5062 days, G2250 tempted G3985 of G5259 Satan; G4567 and G2532 was G2258 with G3326 the G3588 wild beasts; G2342 and G2532 the G3588 angels G32 ministered G1247 unto him. G846
Mrk 8:11 And G2532 the G3588 Pharisees G5330 came forth, G1831 and G2532 began G756 to question with G4802 him, G846 seeking G2212 of G3844 him G846 a sign G4592 from G575 heaven, G3772 tempting G3985 him. G846
Mrk 10:2 And G2532 the G3588 Pharisees G5330 came to G4334 him, and asked G1905 him, G846 ( G1487 ) Is it lawful G1832 for a man G435 to put away G630 his wife? G1135 tempting G3985 him. G846
Mrk 12:15 Shall we give, G1325 or G2228 shall we not G3361 give? G1325 But G1161 he, G3588 knowing G1492 their G846 hypocrisy, G5272 said G2036 unto them, G846 Why G5101 tempt G3985 ye me? G3165 bring G5342 me G3427 a penny, G1220 that G2443 I may see G1492 it.
Luk 4:2 Being forty G5062 days G2250 tempted G3985 of G5259 the G3588 devil. G1228 And G2532 in G1722 those G1565 days G2250 he did( G3756 ) eat G5315 nothing: G3762 and G2532 when they G846 were ended, G4931 he afterward G5305 hungered. G3983
Luk 11:16 And G1161 others, G2087 tempting G3985 him, sought G2212 of G3844 him G846 a sign G4592 from G1537 heaven. G3772
Luk 20:23 But G1161 he perceived G2657 their G848 craftiness, G3834 and said G2036 unto G4314 them, G846 Why G5101 tempt G3985 ye me? G3165
Jhn 6:6 And G1161 this G5124 he said G3004 to prove G3985 him: G846 for G1063 he G846 himself knew G1492 what G5101 he would G3195 do. G4160
Jhn 8:6 ( G1161 ) This G5124 they said, G3004 tempting G3985 him, G846 that G2443 they might have G2192 to accuse G2723 him. G846 But G1161 Jesus G2424 stooped G2955 down, G2736 and with his finger G1147 wrote G1125 on G1519 the G3588 ground, G1093 as though he heard them not.
Act 5:9 Then G1161 Peter G4074 said G2036 unto G4314 her, G846 How G5101 is it that G3754 ye G5213 have agreed together G4856 to tempt G3985 the G3588 Spirit G4151 of the Lord? G2962 behold, G2400 the G3588 feet G4228 of them which have buried G2290 thy G4675 husband G435 are at G1909 the G3588 door, G2374 and G2532 shall carry thee out. G1627 G4571
Act 15:10 Now G3568 therefore G3767 why G5101 tempt G3985 ye God, G2316 to put G2007 a yoke G2218 upon G1909 the G3588 neck G5137 of the G3588 disciples, G3101 which G3739 neither G3777 our G2257 fathers G3962 nor G3777 we G2249 were able G2480 to bear? G941
Act 16:7 After they were come G2064 to G2596 Mysia, G3465 they assayed G3985 to go G4198 into G2596 Bithynia: G978 but G2532 the G3588 Spirit G4151 suffered G1439 them G846 not. G3756
Act 24:6 Who G3739 also G2532 hath gone about G3985 to profane G953 the G3588 temple: G2411 whom G3739 we took, G2902 and G2532 would G2309 have judged G2919 according G2596 to our G2251 law. G3551
1Co 7:5 Defraud G650 ye not G3361 one the other, G240 except G1509 G302 it be with G1537 consent G4859 for G4314 a time, G2540 that G2443 ye may give yourselves G4980 to fasting G3521 and G2532 prayer; G4335 and G2532 come together G4905 again, G3825 that G2443 Satan G4567 tempt G3985 you G5209 not G3361 for G1223 your G5216 incontinency. G192
1Co 10:9 Neither G3366 let us tempt G1598 Christ, G5547 as G2531 some G5100 of them G846 also G2532 tempted, G3985 and G2532 were destroyed G622 of G5259 serpents. G3789
1Co 10:13 There hath no G3756 temptation G3986 taken G2983 you G5209 but G1508 such as is common to man: G442 but G1161 God G2316 is faithful, G4103 who G3739 will not G3756 suffer G1439 you G5209 to be tempted G3985 above G5228 that G3739 ye are able; G1410 but G235 will with G4862 the G3588 temptation G3986 also G2532 make G4160 a way to escape, G1545 that ye G5209 may be able G1410 to bear G5297 it.
2Co 13:5 Examine G3985 yourselves, G1438 whether G1487 ye be G2075 in G1722 the G3588 faith; G4102 prove G1381 your own selves. G1438 ( G2228 ) Know G1921 ye not G3756 your own selves, G1438 ( G2228 ) how that G3754 Jesus G2424 Christ G5547 is G2076 in G1722 you, G5213 except G1509 ye be G2075 reprobates? G96
Gal 6:1 Brethren, G80 if G1437 a man G444 be( G2532 ) overtaken G4301 in G1722 a G5100 fault, G3900 ye G5210 which are spiritual, G4152 restore G2675 such an one G5108 in G1722 the spirit G4151 of meekness; G4236 considering G4648 thyself, G4572 lest G3361 thou G4771 also G2532 be tempted. G3985
1Th 3:5 For this cause, G1223 G5124 when I G2504 could no longer G3371 forbear, G4722 I sent G3992 to know G1097 your G5216 faith, G4102 lest by some means G3381 the G3588 tempter G3985 have tempted G3985 you, G5209 and G2532 our G2257 labour G2873 be G1096 in G1519 vain. G2756
Heb 2:18 For G1063 in G1722 that G3739 he G846 himself hath suffered G3958 being tempted, G3985 he is able G1410 to succour G997 them that are tempted. G3985
Heb 3:9 When G3757 your G5216 fathers G3962 tempted G3985 me, G3165 proved G1381 me, G3165 and G2532 saw G1492 my G3450 works G2041 forty G5062 years. G2094
Heb 4:15 For G1063 we have G2192 not G3756 an high priest G749 which cannot G1410 G3361 be touched with the feeling of G4834 our G2257 infirmities; G769 but G1161 was in G2596 all points G3956 tempted G3985 like as G2596 G3665 we are, yet without G5565 sin. G266
Heb 11:17 By faith G4102 Abraham, G11 when he was tried, G3985 offered up G4374 Isaac: G2464 and G2532 he that had received G324 the G3588 promises G1860 offered up G4374 his only begotten G3439 son,
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, G3034 they were sawn asunder, G4249 were tempted, G3985 were slain G599 with G1722 the( G5408 ) sword: G3162 they wandered about G4022 in G1722 sheepskins G3374 and G2532 goatskins;( G122 ) G1192 being destitute, G5302 afflicted, G2346 tormented; G2558
Jas 1:13 Let no man G3367 say G3004 when he is tempted, G3985 I am tempted G3985 of G575 God: G2316 for G1063 God G2316 cannot be tempted G2076 G551 with evil, G2556 neither G1161 tempteth G3985 he G848 any man: G3762
Jas 1:14 But G1161 every man G1538 is tempted, G3985 when he is drawn away G1828 of G5259 his own G2398 lust, G1939 and G2532 enticed. G1185
Rev 2:2 I know G1492 thy G4675 works, G2041 and G2532 thy G4675 labour, G2873 and G2532 thy G4675 patience, G5281 and G2532 how G3754 thou canst G1410 not G3756 bear G941 them which are evil: G2556 and G2532 thou hast tried G3985 them which say G5335 they are G1511 apostles, G652 and G2532 are G1526 not, G3756 and G2532 hast found G2147 them G846 liars: G5571
Rev 2:10 Fear G5399 none G3367 of those things which G3739 thou shalt G3195 suffer: G3958 behold, G2400 the G3588 devil G1228 shall G3195 cast G906 some of G1537 you G5216 into G1519 prison, G5438 that G2443 ye may be tried; G3985 and G2532 ye shall have G2192 tribulation G2347 ten G1176 days: G2250 be G1096 thou faithful G4103 unto G891 death, G2288 and G2532 I will give G1325 thee G4671 a crown G4735 of life. G2222
Rev 3:10 Because G3754 thou hast kept G5083 the G3588 word G3056 of my G3450 patience, G5281 I also G2504 will keep G5083 thee G4571 from G1537 the G3588 hour G5610 of temptation, G3986 which shall G3195 come G2064 upon G1909 all G3650 the G3588 world, G3625 to try G3985 them G3588 that dwell G2730 upon G1909 the G3588 earth. G1093
Thank you. I look forward to reading your other articles in this series.
I look forward to finishing them :)
Right now I’m putting the finishing touches on a response to the recent ‘fertility idolatry’ article. I don’t know if you saw it.
I don't think I did. Is it a thread on an article entitled, "Fertility Idolatry"?