And God Brought the Woman
So, Marco Fioretti has decided to jump into the ‘Letter Exchange’ thing with me. He writes:
About 3 months ago, I published some "Thoughts and tips on the State of Dating". Later, the author of Von's Substack , after sharing the general concept of letter exchanges in a Substack forum, commented) as follow that post of mine:
(I was sent this link, with the suggestion that we might find things to exchange about:) Well, I certainly can see some ways in which we agree, and others where we disagree. Although most of the latter seem to me to be a question of, "Did you ask yourself this question?" For example... "Is dating actually a good thing? What is or should be its goals? Is it a good way to get married?" And further... what should be our overall goals?
You state, for example, "If you don't want to have kids, that's absolutely OK" and I would disagree... both for yourself, and for society as a whole. It looks like we have a lot to discuss :)
In his post:
I certainly am glad to get involved in a new letter exchange and about such an important topic! I think this post of mine will, like so many others recently, consist largely of definitions and a question.
What is Marriage?
If the question on the floor is “Is Dating a good way to get married?”, it seems necessary to define ‘marriage’… especially in today’s age. I’m pretty sure that Marco and I differ rather dramatically in the definition of ‘marriage’ that we use, which will make a difference in our views on how to get there.
In my post What is Marriage #2B I give the following abbreviated definition of what I think marriage is:
Marriage is a permanent covenant to exclusive sexual1 union between a man2 and a woman3 that has been and is being consummated. It was ordained by God for the purpose of producing a Godly seed, in order that man should take dominion; to which end the woman is his helpmeet, and their children are arrows.
Now, if anyone wishes to complain about my inventing some idiosyncratic definition… let us try this thought experiment. Let us go back in time fifty, two hundred and fifty, two thousand and fifty years… going all around the world, stopping every decade or so. After getting the question duly translated into the local language and adding extra questions where the various aspects don’t get dealt with, we ask ‘What is Marriage?”. I will lay good money that for the overwhelming number of people in the overwhelming mass of times and places, my definition comes a LOT closer to what they would say than any of the alternatives that our audience might propose.
The idea that marriage is some creation of the state or church is practically brand new (as opposed to something that the state is among the parties who recognise something that has already gone on. Is it like a driver’s licence or a birth certificate? Was one never born if the state never issued you a certificate?)
And the idea that anyone other than a man and a woman can be married is not only new but, I would argue, not even believed by those who argue it today.
What is Dating?
If the question on the floor is “Is dating a good way to get married?” it seems necessary to define ‘dating’ as well. The first issue I would point out is if the question is ‘Is X a good way to do Y’, it is rather important to ask if there are other ways to do Y. If there are no other ways, then ‘good’ has one definition; if there are several, then it has another.
Is roller skating a good way to get to town? Well, what are the other options? Do you have a car, a bike, a tractor? Good walking shoes?
When I use the word ‘dating’ then, it is as ONE OF the various ways of getting married. Let me propose three for the purposes of this discussion:
Arranged marriage: the marriage is formed by the will of the parents or some other authorities. Usually does NOT involve much, if any, sexual activity along the way.
Courtship: the marriage is formed through the combined will of the parents and the people getting married via a process of ‘getting to know each other’ and approval. Usually does NOT involve much, if any, sexual activity along the way.4
Dating: the marriage is formed by the will of the man and woman getting married, with advice from others, but not consent, via a process of deliberate romantic encounters, which usually involve a variety of sexual activities.5
For the purpose of these three definitions, I am ignoring the consent of either the state or the church… although in many situations, these play a large role.6 But I have no name for those, and I don’t think they affect the majority of the people that would be the audience for these posts.
Thus, when I ask if ‘dating’ is a good way to get married, I am contrasting the will: is it that of the parents, both, or the couple alone? Is it via a process of encounters? And does it include sexual activity?
What is the Goal?
If the question on the floor is “Is dating a good way to get married?” then it seems important to notice the fact that this is a ‘goal’ statement. Dating is being judged on its ability to ‘get you married’.
By ‘a good way,’ I am asking if the process produces good marriages in an efficient manner. ‘Good’, as I am using it, means few if any, divorces and ‘efficient’ means less time, effort, money, etc. Bringing water up from a stream a mile away using a thimble might work to supply water to a house, but it isn’t efficient.
Conclusion
To conclude, I repeat my question: Is dating a good way to get married? Does our current process of a series of romantic encounters between the people involved, with a possible view of forming a marriage… work to produce numerous, strong marriages in an efficient way?
My answer will come more fully later, but it will be ‘obviously not’. It is hard to imagine anyone looking at the statistics and making the claim that our modern system is working well. From INCEL and INCHEL demographic death, the divorce statistics, the huge numbers of children born out of wedlock and living in single (largely mother-only) households.. and the resulting social disruption… our current system is producing disaster after disaster.
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman,
and brought her unto the man.
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Genesis 2:22-25
Thank you for reading Von’s Substack. I would love it if you commented! I love hearing from readers, especially critical comments. I would love to start more letter exchanges, so if there’s a subject you’re interested in, get writing and tag me!
Being ‘restacked’ and mentioned in ‘notes’ is very important for lesser-known stacks so… feel free! I’m semi-retired and write as a ministry (and for fun) so you don’t need to feel guilty you aren’t paying for anything, but if you enjoy my writing (even if you dramatically disagree with it), then restack, please! Or mention me in one of your own posts.
If I don’t write you back it is almost certain that I didn’t see it, so please feel free to comment and link to your post. Or if you just think I would be interested in your post!
Thanks again, God Bless, Soli Deo gloria,
Von
Links
What is Marriage? 2B (or not 2b, I suppose)
So, Andrew has written his next ‘letter’ in our series. The series so far includes this post, and… 1A By Andrew: Where he lays out a bunch of questions and thoughts about what marriage is, dealing with both historical issues (how our view of marriage has changed over the years) and definitional ones (legal vs religious).
Depopulation Solutions
John Carter published an article entitled Depopulocalypse III – From SINK to FLOAT. In it, he was talking about solutions for the depopulation crisis. It was behind a paywall but has since come out. I recommend you read the article and the entire series. His solutions are interesting and cover a wide range of issues.
It is the Women’s fault.
And the men’s fault, and the father’s fault, and the pastor’s fault. The problem with the word ‘fault’ is that it can so easily be sidetracked and confused. One can point to the wrong problem, include too many things in the set of problems, or include too few. Or somehow manage to do all of those at once.
INCHEL
From time to time, the internet is awash with discussions of men said to be ‘INCEL’: men who are involuntarily celibate (ie who would wish to have sex, but are not doing so for reasons they consider beyond their control). The definition and the discussion, range wildly from that point, but I would like to put forward another word for another group. The …
Single Income Lots of Kids
The internet is awash with acronyms for social groups, especially modern social groups. You have ‘INCEL’, which at its core stands for ‘involuntarily celibate’; and usually refers to a young man who wishes to date, marry, have sex etc. but cannot manage it. You have
Contract Marriage Intro
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
I define ‘sexual’ later in the article but at the very least: “frequent vaginal intercourse between a man and a woman”.
By ‘man’ I mean, for the purposes of this definition, a human being with XY chromosomes, all appropriately male primary and secondary sexual characteristics, who accepts and applies the ‘male’ role in his society. The definition of marriage might apply to someone who does not fully fit all of this description, but I am not addressing those edge cases here.
By ‘woman’ I mean, for the purposes of this definition, a human being with XX chromosomes, all appropriate female primary and secondary sexual characteristics, who accepts and applies the ‘female’ role in her society. The definition of marriage might apply to someone who does not fully fit all of this description, but I am not addressing those edge cases here.
There is a tradition of sexual experimentation in certain courtship traditions, called ‘bundling’. However, to the best of my knowldge, most courtship traditions do NOT include sexual activity.
Obviously, this has changed over the years, but even back in the 70’s dating was considered to eventually include sexual activity unless the girl was a ‘cold fish’.
Meaning that both the state and the church might say who the person couldn’t marry. In recent years neither tends to have much to say as to who you should or must marry.
I personally hate the concept of dating. It's what has led us to hook-up culture, and just gives people an excuse to not actually get to know their "partner" on a deeper level. Courting almost always gets my vote.
The inclusion of "2B" was the perfect of our series to throw in. I originally thought the first would have been apt, but skimming back through them both tells me you're spot on.
Wonderful write up.