Von, I appreciate your continued engagement of my writing. This all makes sense to me. I agree that at the heart of submission is the embodied enactment of the will of the person submitted to. That is, the one submitting becomes an extension of the body of the one to whom they are submitting. Thus Paul says that husbands should love their wives "as their own bodies" (Eph. 5:28). That is, not merely *like* your own body, but *as* your own body...because that is what she is--an extension of your name, your self, and your will in the world. Children play a similar role with regard to their parents. Therefore the command to submit involves the responsibility of both parties, but especially the party being submitted to. Jesus: "You must enter the kingdom like a child...but woe to those who cause one of these little ones to sin." It's not the disobedient child who gets the millstone but the errant parent.
I also agree that "submit" is deeper and more all-encompassing than "obey," just as the husband's exhortation to "love" is deeper and more all-encompassing than "command/rule over." Functionally, I have been trying to paint a wider picture of the application of Ephesians 5 (and like passages) than the simplistic command-and-obey formula. I am not accusing you of this simplistic notion. But that has been the reason for my own use of terms like "trust" and "trustworthiness." Not to lighten the load of "submit," but to help us to understand the spirit of what Paul is saying--and how the burden of such a command rests on both husbands and wives, but especially husbands. If I seem to have danced around the "submit" and "love" commands, that is entirely accidental and, to be honest, the opposite of my purpose. Hope that makes sense.
One reason why I tend to shy away from using the second person in my responses, is because I tend not to be so much trying to directly respond to or debate or criticise the person that triggered me to write on a given subject.
And so I love it when the person I am responding to agrees and then adds different information or adds different perspectives to what I’m writing.
I think in general, mostly I consider my audience to be sort of the wider Christian community. At least for posts like this one. And I’m afraid that for a lot of the wider Christian community when they aren’t busy ignoring the idea of the wife submitting in the first place, they are trying to make it shallower , then mere obedience. That’s why I tend to write from the perspective I do.
Von, I appreciate your continued engagement of my writing. This all makes sense to me. I agree that at the heart of submission is the embodied enactment of the will of the person submitted to. That is, the one submitting becomes an extension of the body of the one to whom they are submitting. Thus Paul says that husbands should love their wives "as their own bodies" (Eph. 5:28). That is, not merely *like* your own body, but *as* your own body...because that is what she is--an extension of your name, your self, and your will in the world. Children play a similar role with regard to their parents. Therefore the command to submit involves the responsibility of both parties, but especially the party being submitted to. Jesus: "You must enter the kingdom like a child...but woe to those who cause one of these little ones to sin." It's not the disobedient child who gets the millstone but the errant parent.
I also agree that "submit" is deeper and more all-encompassing than "obey," just as the husband's exhortation to "love" is deeper and more all-encompassing than "command/rule over." Functionally, I have been trying to paint a wider picture of the application of Ephesians 5 (and like passages) than the simplistic command-and-obey formula. I am not accusing you of this simplistic notion. But that has been the reason for my own use of terms like "trust" and "trustworthiness." Not to lighten the load of "submit," but to help us to understand the spirit of what Paul is saying--and how the burden of such a command rests on both husbands and wives, but especially husbands. If I seem to have danced around the "submit" and "love" commands, that is entirely accidental and, to be honest, the opposite of my purpose. Hope that makes sense.
One reason why I tend to shy away from using the second person in my responses, is because I tend not to be so much trying to directly respond to or debate or criticise the person that triggered me to write on a given subject.
And so I love it when the person I am responding to agrees and then adds different information or adds different perspectives to what I’m writing.
I think in general, mostly I consider my audience to be sort of the wider Christian community. At least for posts like this one. And I’m afraid that for a lot of the wider Christian community when they aren’t busy ignoring the idea of the wife submitting in the first place, they are trying to make it shallower , then mere obedience. That’s why I tend to write from the perspective I do.