That is a sarcastic remark with serious intent. Evolution is real and explains the physical characteristics of life on earth. These physical characteristics are coded for on allels which are sites on dna which we know change over time and we know the history of in some detail.
So evolution is real but explains less than pure materialists think it does. It falls flat in trying to derive an ought from an is and thus is silent on matters such as ethics, beauty, love, and the foundational basis by which one would choose an ontology that allows of Platonic pure forms perhaps even non material conscious beings.
So my prediction is you will talk past each other because both of you have an epistemological bias that structures your view of reality and the words you use to describe that I think it will be hard for you to agree on neutral terms to use in the debate or discussion. I would like to be depressed though and have you two prove me wrong. You are both excellent writers, good luck.
Hey, feel free to join in on the debate :) I don't know if you have read the other posts on the topic but feel free to jump in. It would be interesting to get a... what would you call your position?... theistic evolutionist?... in the conversation.
Right. So Von, you believe in creationism but not evolution, is this fair. I propose that both can be true at the same time. Let’s say god created the universe and here we are, what do object to about evolution? Based on what? Could you state in some clarity your positions.
I have stated I don’t believe in social Darwinism
I believe in evolution as proposed by Darwin.
I can accept that no one truly knows the origin of our universe.
I believe man, wrote the bible.
I believe we are a story telling species and that most religions are on to something, but really are just attempted explanations of our world.
As is evolution.
Are you a 6000 year old earth creationist?
Or a less literal believer in your interpretation of the holy book?
Perhaps it would be better to say I believe in creation, not evolution. Or I believe in creationism, not evolutionism.
In light of the last evolution typically, but not always, implies materialism. Materialism and Christianity are contradictory. My objections in the post above are based on that. Do you agree to the ground rules. Are you a non-materialist?
I agree to the ground rules. I will go over once again. If i stumble, or violate them it will likely be out of ignorance, but I wish to understand your positions in simple lay mans terms and we can go from there.
That's what happens when I try to type from my phone :)
I just meant 'in light of the last thing I said, I should note that evolution usually (but not always) implies materialism.
Don't worry about stumbling over the rules. I put them out there to show the difficulty of the debate. Let me know when you are going to 'post' so I can put it in its own post and respond etc.
Well, obviously a full answer to your questions would take a long time. Let me start with the answer is that seem most Jermaine to our conversation here.
I believe that the entire created order was created ex nihlo in the space of six days by the power of God’s word. I believe that the concept generally goes by the term evolution is specifically and deliberately contradicted in the book of Genesis. I believe that the Bible is the innerrant word of God.
As far as whether I could be wrong, of course I could be wrong. That is part of the nature of being human. What might be of more interest to you would be the method that you would have to use to prove me wrong. In order to convince me that I was wrong.
You would first of all probably have to have a very good knowledge of the scripture. And then he would have to find an area of the scripture that I had not studied, or where I had just been blissfully going along scrawling past it my entire life. And then you would have to use your own study to show me what the best Interpretation or translation of that particular passage was, and how that would work out in our lives.
I leave that up to you. I am fine either way. I find a back and forth like this might be better and then post if you like. But i really don’t care. Just want to hear your thoughts and have others involved
How do you explain the low hanging fruit arguments of dinosaurs? The Copernican heliocentric universe i assume you agree with today but wouldn’t have 500 years ago?
How do you square the circle that the literal interpretation of the bible is rife with contradiction’s?
Was Jonah living in a whale?
Did all of the animals of earth make it on an ark and off and then just walked/flew swam to their homes.
You know the Russians domesticated foxes within a human lifetime right?
The laryngeal nerve?
Why would god create oxygen breathing animals who live in the water?
Well, I am sure that you are curious about lots of those things, but I thought our point here was to have a debate about evolution, not to assuage your curiosity :)
Is there a direction you’d like to go with your actual first post in the debate?
Sure. How about we say the universe is created. You win😉. If you believe and act as if things like gravity and other generally accepted theories are more or less true. What do you have against Darwin’s Natural selection? Maybe God wrote the bible as a metaphor, or maybe men wrote the New Testament decades after Jesus was alive and hid the true bible from the rest of us all this time. In any case if you believe the sky is blue is it because you see it, the bible tells you so, or that logic led you to it? If any of these are true why? And if not why not?
I will be back home tonight with a laptop Von. You should do as you say and post this before if you like. I reread your non-materialist post and our conversation. I understand you to be a literal interpreter of the bible. Must be hard in this day and age. But i respect you for it. I have a friend from my hometown and one from my work who are close to your position but not literalist. Oh and have you ever watched “the man from earth”? Fascinating low budget sci fi film. Highly recommend it to everyone reading here
Ok, well, the post I was working on won't be ready until, at the soonest, sometime Saturday. Feel free to post something yourself, either as an article on your stack or as a long comment here to Ground Rules.
You are both wrong. 1/2 :-)
That is a sarcastic remark with serious intent. Evolution is real and explains the physical characteristics of life on earth. These physical characteristics are coded for on allels which are sites on dna which we know change over time and we know the history of in some detail.
So evolution is real but explains less than pure materialists think it does. It falls flat in trying to derive an ought from an is and thus is silent on matters such as ethics, beauty, love, and the foundational basis by which one would choose an ontology that allows of Platonic pure forms perhaps even non material conscious beings.
So my prediction is you will talk past each other because both of you have an epistemological bias that structures your view of reality and the words you use to describe that I think it will be hard for you to agree on neutral terms to use in the debate or discussion. I would like to be depressed though and have you two prove me wrong. You are both excellent writers, good luck.
Hey, feel free to join in on the debate :) I don't know if you have read the other posts on the topic but feel free to jump in. It would be interesting to get a... what would you call your position?... theistic evolutionist?... in the conversation.
Right. So Von, you believe in creationism but not evolution, is this fair. I propose that both can be true at the same time. Let’s say god created the universe and here we are, what do object to about evolution? Based on what? Could you state in some clarity your positions.
I have stated I don’t believe in social Darwinism
I believe in evolution as proposed by Darwin.
I can accept that no one truly knows the origin of our universe.
I believe man, wrote the bible.
I believe we are a story telling species and that most religions are on to something, but really are just attempted explanations of our world.
As is evolution.
Are you a 6000 year old earth creationist?
Or a less literal believer in your interpretation of the holy book?
Perhaps it would be better to say I believe in creation, not evolution. Or I believe in creationism, not evolutionism.
In light of the last evolution typically, but not always, implies materialism. Materialism and Christianity are contradictory. My objections in the post above are based on that. Do you agree to the ground rules. Are you a non-materialist?
In light of the last evolution refers too?
I guess i am a materialist.
Does this matter truly? Truth is idk but
I agree to the ground rules. I will go over once again. If i stumble, or violate them it will likely be out of ignorance, but I wish to understand your positions in simple lay mans terms and we can go from there.
That's what happens when I try to type from my phone :)
I just meant 'in light of the last thing I said, I should note that evolution usually (but not always) implies materialism.
Don't worry about stumbling over the rules. I put them out there to show the difficulty of the debate. Let me know when you are going to 'post' so I can put it in its own post and respond etc.
Ok well, can we just sort out where you fall on a few issues?
Are you open to the possibility that the world was created by a higher power and evolution exists?
Are you a literal believer in the bible?
What denomination of Christian are you?
What do you say about other denominations of Christianity and other religions?
Fo you believe in Noah’s Ark
What do you claim is happening when species differentiate like Marsupial from other mammals?
Are you open to the possibility that you could be wrong?
No need to get to philosophical, just answer please and feel free to ask me anything as well.
Are you wanting me to write this as a post? Or are you just wanting to have a conversation here in notes?
Well, obviously a full answer to your questions would take a long time. Let me start with the answer is that seem most Jermaine to our conversation here.
I believe that the entire created order was created ex nihlo in the space of six days by the power of God’s word. I believe that the concept generally goes by the term evolution is specifically and deliberately contradicted in the book of Genesis. I believe that the Bible is the innerrant word of God.
As far as whether I could be wrong, of course I could be wrong. That is part of the nature of being human. What might be of more interest to you would be the method that you would have to use to prove me wrong. In order to convince me that I was wrong.
You would first of all probably have to have a very good knowledge of the scripture. And then he would have to find an area of the scripture that I had not studied, or where I had just been blissfully going along scrawling past it my entire life. And then you would have to use your own study to show me what the best Interpretation or translation of that particular passage was, and how that would work out in our lives.
I leave that up to you. I am fine either way. I find a back and forth like this might be better and then post if you like. But i really don’t care. Just want to hear your thoughts and have others involved
Which denomination are you?
Does your denomination accept evolution or not?
How do you explain evolution away?
How do you explain the low hanging fruit arguments of dinosaurs? The Copernican heliocentric universe i assume you agree with today but wouldn’t have 500 years ago?
How do you square the circle that the literal interpretation of the bible is rife with contradiction’s?
Was Jonah living in a whale?
Did all of the animals of earth make it on an ark and off and then just walked/flew swam to their homes.
You know the Russians domesticated foxes within a human lifetime right?
The laryngeal nerve?
Why would god create oxygen breathing animals who live in the water?
All of these i am curious what you say
Well, I am sure that you are curious about lots of those things, but I thought our point here was to have a debate about evolution, not to assuage your curiosity :)
Is there a direction you’d like to go with your actual first post in the debate?
Sure. How about we say the universe is created. You win😉. If you believe and act as if things like gravity and other generally accepted theories are more or less true. What do you have against Darwin’s Natural selection? Maybe God wrote the bible as a metaphor, or maybe men wrote the New Testament decades after Jesus was alive and hid the true bible from the rest of us all this time. In any case if you believe the sky is blue is it because you see it, the bible tells you so, or that logic led you to it? If any of these are true why? And if not why not?
I think we should post these and let everyone see and carry on for a few days. I have faith we will get somewhere
I will be back home tonight with a laptop Von. You should do as you say and post this before if you like. I reread your non-materialist post and our conversation. I understand you to be a literal interpreter of the bible. Must be hard in this day and age. But i respect you for it. I have a friend from my hometown and one from my work who are close to your position but not literalist. Oh and have you ever watched “the man from earth”? Fascinating low budget sci fi film. Highly recommend it to everyone reading here
Well no it’s not actually hard at all. Especially with all I know about evolution.
I’m not at home right now and I’m not sure when I’m gonna get home tonight so it might be tomorrow for I can post anything.
Ok, well, the post I was working on won't be ready until, at the soonest, sometime Saturday. Feel free to post something yourself, either as an article on your stack or as a long comment here to Ground Rules.