So, my post about Baby Language brought forth a comment, and it contained a couple of interesting issues that I thought it would be worthwhile to bring them forward as a post.
If I were to be walking down the street carrying your child, I don't think you would be very impressed if I tossed it under a bus.
IOW Society as a whole has typically taken an interest in what people having power do to people not having power. The ancient Greeks used to expose their children, the Indians used to burn their widows on the same pyre as their deceased husband.
All laws stem from moral and religious beliefs. It wasn’t humanism that led to laws against rape. Rape is not only allowed but encouraged in some religions so should we keep our religious convictions to ourselves and allow rape? American law is based off English common law which is founded in Christian morality. So do you want to return to the legal system that was in place by the Native Americans who were here before that pesky Christian based law was introduced? Of course their “laws” were also based on their religious beliefs so you would still be ruled by religion. You are fine with being ruled by laws that have their foundation in religion when you happen to agree with them, it’s only when you disagree that having religion imposed on you is an issue. Slave owners didn’t particularly like being told they couldn’t own slaves anymore either, but forcing the Christian belief that owning another man was wrong on slave owners was absolutely the correct thing to do. Making it illegal for mothers to murder their babies is the correct thing to do. It’s the moral thing to do and it’s the consistent logical thing to do.
If I am pregnant and want the baby and my husband kicks me in the stomach to kill the baby in most states he can be charged with some form of manslaughter or even murder. However if I decide I don’t want the baby then I can kill the baby without consequence. The only difference between the two situations is how the mother feels about the baby. If the mother wants the baby then it’s a baby and if she has a miscarriage it’s a tragedy and if it was purposely caused by another it’s a crime. However if she doesn’t want the baby then killing the baby is no different than any other procedure. This means the feelings of the mother define the value of the life of the child. This is a very dangerous place for a society to stand, to allow the emotions of others to dictate the value of other human beings leads to catastrophic evil.
If im reading you right, by your, thinking,logic, is that my mom who died of Ovarian cancer approximately fourteen months ago, after five years of absolute hell, and I mean hell, that if she so chose to end her life, that should be banned as well. That is criminal, and the doctors and staff are criminal as well?
Or my mother in law, who one year before that, had her breast cancer return , which then spread to her liver and then everywhere else in her body, the pain and suffering that she endured, if she chose to end her life, she as well, according to you,would be commiting a criminal act, and again the doctors and staff and hospitals for that matter.
And also why I ask this question, six months before my mom died, she had to be hospitalized, and spent a week in. The Palliative care ward, I spent most nights with my mom,and in that time I also got a first hand look at what nurses and orderlies go through, I wont write about it here.
Just an FYI, both died at home, we are very fortunate to live in Quebec, where there are palliative care teams that come in to patients homes and help out, both nurses and doctors.
So im very curious , what is your opinion on this subject.
As a Christian and a mixed animal veterinarian I have a rather unusual relationship with death that would take a small book to flesh out. I am afraid that without such a thorough analysis of my relationship with death and how that relationship forms my views on end of life care in people that any synopsis of my opinions on such matters might come across as far more cold and cruel than they are. Veterinarians have the highest suicide rate of any professional group and I am married to a veteran which is one of the only demographic groups with a higher suicide rate than veterinarians. So I will freely admit that for me suicide is very much a personal and emotional topic. That disclaimer aside I will try and briefly summarize my feelings on the matter.
To begin with I think that there is a difference between killing and murder and that suicide is self killing and not self murder. There is also the practical issue that you cannot actually make suicide illegal. You can make attempted suicide illegal, you can make assisted suicide illegal, but since there is no way to punish a corpse you cannot make suicide illegal. While making attempted suicide illegal is possible it’s also rather absurd. If someone is attempting suicide because of a terrible disease or diagnosis they are likely to die before their case ever goes to trial and even if not, now, the state is responsible for end of life care or for caring for someone who requires lots of care. That would be an expensive and pointless burden to put on the state. People who attempt suicide who are not terminally ill have some sort of mental issue going on that would be much better served by healthcare professionals than prison. So I suppose I could understand a law against attempted suicide wherein the “punishment” was some sort of in-patient mental health program with avenues to graduate to out patient treatment. However throwing people in jail for attempting suicide seems expensive and pointless.
I am entirely against assisted suicide or euthanasia of human beings. I am against it because of the grave consequences if such a process gets misapplied or misused (which has already happened in Canada) but mostly I am against it because I fear for the souls of the health professionals involved. Killing animals routinely, even if it’s ending suffering is extremely destructive to one’s soul. There is a tendency over time to either become numb to it or to be destroyed by it. I very much worry that the human healthcare professionals involved will strip my profession of our title of most likely to commit suicide. I also worry about healthcare professionals who have less control over their shadow urges gravitating towards that area of “medicine”. I have heard and read numerous interviews with Canadian doctors that have left me deeply disturbed. They have said things that would be considered red flags in my profession were they uttered about animals so to hear them discuss killing people so proudly and glibly was profoundly disturbing for me.
In my field there is an emphasis on quality of life over quantity of life and in the US at least that is not the case even in palliative care/hospice. I think that mindset would be beneficial both for the public at large and for the palliative care/hospice side of medicine. Perhaps instead of trying to control the day and the time with the perfect cocktail we would be better served with fewer interventions that delay the inevitable but draw it out. Perhaps waiting until we are past the point of being able to end our own lives and relying on someone else to accomplish that task is more damaging and selfish than we think.
I very much think that future generations will look at assisted suicide and euthanasia with the same horror we now look at slavery with. I do not think that is a movement that ultimately will be on the right side of history.
My condolences on the loss of your mother and mother in law.
That was a really a well written,thoughtful response. Although we differ on our thinking, and probably won't agree on the subjects written here, I do share your your concern for vetrenarians.
Having had to put our boxerman down , after fourteen years. Was a very difficult thing to do, to endure.
From what I was able two learn from this experience was that most vetrenarians, have what would seem to be, an inner joy at being with animals, A love , even a friendship, very compassionate.
And I can relate to the stresses involved, because they witness not just the pain of the animals, but of the owners as well.
They see people mourning the death of their friend and companion in many cases.
That in itself can be very trying on the psyche.
As for a doctor, Gleeful wanting someone to die, or being Happy or take joy , I've never ever seen that,or heard of that.
You are also correct, there has been a push back in Canada by some in both The Provincial Governments The Federal Government, and some Proffesionals in the medical community as well as medical ethiscists.
>>Instead of fixating on abortion, try working on the soon to be :
This is a non-sequitor. An extreme non-sequitor, but one that is rather common. I may end up responding with a post, but in the meantime:
1) The fact that we have murdered 40 million children so far, by your own figures, makes it a rather important issue. The fact that they are being murdered by their own mother, in cooperation with a so-called doctor, with cooperation from various other friends and relatives, maginfies the issue dramatically.
2) It is a moral issue, which affects the entire society and country. If a child dies in a car accident, it is a tragedy but it is not normally a moral failing. Perhaps someone was speeding, perhaps someone was drunk, but almost never was someone trying to kill the child.
3) Most of the other ways of children dying are so varied that it is hard to even lump them together. Cancer? Well, we can do our best to do research. We can even get rid of some laws and regulations that lead to more deaths. But it isn't like there is one point of impact that affects the entire battle against child cancer, or birth defects, etc. But mothers murdering their own children, and our entire society lying about it, is much more of a coherent issue.
4) It is a rather silly argument in light of what we have been discussing. Unless you are willing to say, "Yes, Abortion is murder but..." then deflecting to other causes of child mortality is rather silly.
5) I actually do work on some of the others, right here on Substack. I am extremely pro-breastfeeding, for example, which is a known way of reducing child mortality. I am very pro-marriage, ditto.
Question
Are you carrying the Child? Baby? Fetus? What ever terminology suits you.
No?
Then don't try to impose your Religous beliefs on another individual, let them decide , is that too hard for you to understand?
And yes Impose is what Theocrats Do.
If I were to be walking down the street carrying your child, I don't think you would be very impressed if I tossed it under a bus.
IOW Society as a whole has typically taken an interest in what people having power do to people not having power. The ancient Greeks used to expose their children, the Indians used to burn their widows on the same pyre as their deceased husband.
A civilized society executes murderers.
So your care about unborn children
Simple Question
Do you care about children after birth.
Yes or No Answer
Yes. See full comment above.
Ok
First of all,
What can be discerned from your comments is the fact that you do not not understand law, crime or punishment.
And in fact what can be discerned ,is that you really do exhibit some narcissistic tendencies.
So i put this together just for you
BIRTHS 2023:171 million
BIRTHS TODAY:240k
DEATHS 2023: 54.5 MILL
DEATHS TODAY:109K
DEATH OF CHILDREN UNDER 5
6,8 Million
DEATHS OF CHILDREN FROM 5 TO 12: NO DATA AVAILABLE
ABORTIONS THIS YEAR:40 Mill
WOMENS DEATHS IN CHILDBIRTH: 276.5K
Methinks you have some errors in that list:
1) You list 'today'... do you mean November 23rd?
2) Why is there no data available for children who have died? That seems odd.
3) What is the point of this list?
All laws stem from moral and religious beliefs. It wasn’t humanism that led to laws against rape. Rape is not only allowed but encouraged in some religions so should we keep our religious convictions to ourselves and allow rape? American law is based off English common law which is founded in Christian morality. So do you want to return to the legal system that was in place by the Native Americans who were here before that pesky Christian based law was introduced? Of course their “laws” were also based on their religious beliefs so you would still be ruled by religion. You are fine with being ruled by laws that have their foundation in religion when you happen to agree with them, it’s only when you disagree that having religion imposed on you is an issue. Slave owners didn’t particularly like being told they couldn’t own slaves anymore either, but forcing the Christian belief that owning another man was wrong on slave owners was absolutely the correct thing to do. Making it illegal for mothers to murder their babies is the correct thing to do. It’s the moral thing to do and it’s the consistent logical thing to do.
If I am pregnant and want the baby and my husband kicks me in the stomach to kill the baby in most states he can be charged with some form of manslaughter or even murder. However if I decide I don’t want the baby then I can kill the baby without consequence. The only difference between the two situations is how the mother feels about the baby. If the mother wants the baby then it’s a baby and if she has a miscarriage it’s a tragedy and if it was purposely caused by another it’s a crime. However if she doesn’t want the baby then killing the baby is no different than any other procedure. This means the feelings of the mother define the value of the life of the child. This is a very dangerous place for a society to stand, to allow the emotions of others to dictate the value of other human beings leads to catastrophic evil.
Thank you Dr Slatton,
Beautiful response.
If im reading you right, by your, thinking,logic, is that my mom who died of Ovarian cancer approximately fourteen months ago, after five years of absolute hell, and I mean hell, that if she so chose to end her life, that should be banned as well. That is criminal, and the doctors and staff are criminal as well?
Or my mother in law, who one year before that, had her breast cancer return , which then spread to her liver and then everywhere else in her body, the pain and suffering that she endured, if she chose to end her life, she as well, according to you,would be commiting a criminal act, and again the doctors and staff and hospitals for that matter.
And also why I ask this question, six months before my mom died, she had to be hospitalized, and spent a week in. The Palliative care ward, I spent most nights with my mom,and in that time I also got a first hand look at what nurses and orderlies go through, I wont write about it here.
Just an FYI, both died at home, we are very fortunate to live in Quebec, where there are palliative care teams that come in to patients homes and help out, both nurses and doctors.
So im very curious , what is your opinion on this subject.
Once again thank you for your response
Death
As a Christian and a mixed animal veterinarian I have a rather unusual relationship with death that would take a small book to flesh out. I am afraid that without such a thorough analysis of my relationship with death and how that relationship forms my views on end of life care in people that any synopsis of my opinions on such matters might come across as far more cold and cruel than they are. Veterinarians have the highest suicide rate of any professional group and I am married to a veteran which is one of the only demographic groups with a higher suicide rate than veterinarians. So I will freely admit that for me suicide is very much a personal and emotional topic. That disclaimer aside I will try and briefly summarize my feelings on the matter.
To begin with I think that there is a difference between killing and murder and that suicide is self killing and not self murder. There is also the practical issue that you cannot actually make suicide illegal. You can make attempted suicide illegal, you can make assisted suicide illegal, but since there is no way to punish a corpse you cannot make suicide illegal. While making attempted suicide illegal is possible it’s also rather absurd. If someone is attempting suicide because of a terrible disease or diagnosis they are likely to die before their case ever goes to trial and even if not, now, the state is responsible for end of life care or for caring for someone who requires lots of care. That would be an expensive and pointless burden to put on the state. People who attempt suicide who are not terminally ill have some sort of mental issue going on that would be much better served by healthcare professionals than prison. So I suppose I could understand a law against attempted suicide wherein the “punishment” was some sort of in-patient mental health program with avenues to graduate to out patient treatment. However throwing people in jail for attempting suicide seems expensive and pointless.
I am entirely against assisted suicide or euthanasia of human beings. I am against it because of the grave consequences if such a process gets misapplied or misused (which has already happened in Canada) but mostly I am against it because I fear for the souls of the health professionals involved. Killing animals routinely, even if it’s ending suffering is extremely destructive to one’s soul. There is a tendency over time to either become numb to it or to be destroyed by it. I very much worry that the human healthcare professionals involved will strip my profession of our title of most likely to commit suicide. I also worry about healthcare professionals who have less control over their shadow urges gravitating towards that area of “medicine”. I have heard and read numerous interviews with Canadian doctors that have left me deeply disturbed. They have said things that would be considered red flags in my profession were they uttered about animals so to hear them discuss killing people so proudly and glibly was profoundly disturbing for me.
In my field there is an emphasis on quality of life over quantity of life and in the US at least that is not the case even in palliative care/hospice. I think that mindset would be beneficial both for the public at large and for the palliative care/hospice side of medicine. Perhaps instead of trying to control the day and the time with the perfect cocktail we would be better served with fewer interventions that delay the inevitable but draw it out. Perhaps waiting until we are past the point of being able to end our own lives and relying on someone else to accomplish that task is more damaging and selfish than we think.
I very much think that future generations will look at assisted suicide and euthanasia with the same horror we now look at slavery with. I do not think that is a movement that ultimately will be on the right side of history.
My condolences on the loss of your mother and mother in law.
Wow,
Im glad I got my third coffee before reading.
That was a really a well written,thoughtful response. Although we differ on our thinking, and probably won't agree on the subjects written here, I do share your your concern for vetrenarians.
Having had to put our boxerman down , after fourteen years. Was a very difficult thing to do, to endure.
From what I was able two learn from this experience was that most vetrenarians, have what would seem to be, an inner joy at being with animals, A love , even a friendship, very compassionate.
And I can relate to the stresses involved, because they witness not just the pain of the animals, but of the owners as well.
They see people mourning the death of their friend and companion in many cases.
That in itself can be very trying on the psyche.
As for a doctor, Gleeful wanting someone to die, or being Happy or take joy , I've never ever seen that,or heard of that.
You are also correct, there has been a push back in Canada by some in both The Provincial Governments The Federal Government, and some Proffesionals in the medical community as well as medical ethiscists.
This debate is going to go on for some time.
With that,
I hope you had a Great Thanksgiving
Enjoy the Holiday
Of course I care about children after birth! I am a father of six, father-in-law of six, and grandfather of 25, 23 of whom have been born!
Real time data:
Year to date, so yes Nov23rd
And there lots more of it out there..
I didnt finish because i was interrupted.
Instead of fixating on abortion, try working on the soon to be :
Seven Million Children under Five who will die this year, and the Unknown 5 to 12 year olds.
Because faced with these numbers your anti abortion argument rings a bit hollow.
see response above.
Are you a bot?
Nope. I just like to write my responses in the main thread, so I can copy them to notes. For some reason responses can't be copied to notes.
https://vonwriting.substack.com/p/we-dont-stone-people-for-adultery/comment/44173246
>>Instead of fixating on abortion, try working on the soon to be :
This is a non-sequitor. An extreme non-sequitor, but one that is rather common. I may end up responding with a post, but in the meantime:
1) The fact that we have murdered 40 million children so far, by your own figures, makes it a rather important issue. The fact that they are being murdered by their own mother, in cooperation with a so-called doctor, with cooperation from various other friends and relatives, maginfies the issue dramatically.
2) It is a moral issue, which affects the entire society and country. If a child dies in a car accident, it is a tragedy but it is not normally a moral failing. Perhaps someone was speeding, perhaps someone was drunk, but almost never was someone trying to kill the child.
3) Most of the other ways of children dying are so varied that it is hard to even lump them together. Cancer? Well, we can do our best to do research. We can even get rid of some laws and regulations that lead to more deaths. But it isn't like there is one point of impact that affects the entire battle against child cancer, or birth defects, etc. But mothers murdering their own children, and our entire society lying about it, is much more of a coherent issue.
4) It is a rather silly argument in light of what we have been discussing. Unless you are willing to say, "Yes, Abortion is murder but..." then deflecting to other causes of child mortality is rather silly.
5) I actually do work on some of the others, right here on Substack. I am extremely pro-breastfeeding, for example, which is a known way of reducing child mortality. I am very pro-marriage, ditto.
I loved CS Lewis' explanation on the change of knowledge vs moral principle. It is so succinct and well argued.