Why on Earth should we have sex? No, literally. Why, here on Earth, in our current sinful condition, do we have sexual intercourse. Kissing and… ummm… everything? Does it have a point? Does it have several?? Does God say??? Introduction Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
I believe in general that there are arguments are biblically correct but they’re almost always completely and totally misunderstood. I have a quiver full post on my site.
I wouldn’t quite call us a group per se. But no, I mean by people outside of it. When I wrote my post which you can read called always open one of my big goals was to very carefully explain what I meant. You do a little bit of it in your post as well when you talk about the fact that it doesn’t mean, that you have to have sex only when you’re possibly going to create a child or something, but a lot of people who understand the quiver movement think that you need to go to every possible extreme in order to make sure that you have the maximum number of children possible.
As opposed to a perfectly normal and happy and healthy and routine sex life where you don’t do anything to prevent having children. The words I use instead of quill tend to be always open. That you should be always open to having children. And with that I condemn both the general protestant , pension to our birth control, and I also condemn the Catholic idea of natural family planning.
My biggest problem with the quiverful movement is that it seems awfully hard on the marriage, particularly the woman. I don't have a verse I can pull out of my back pocket on this that makes it crystal clear, but it seems to be to be within St. Paul's understanding of marriage ("love your wives as Christ loved the Church") to decide not to have sex for a time because your wife is overwhelmed, exhausted, or grieving. The Scriptures are pretty clear that fertility is an important part of the sexual act and should never be actively thwarted, we agree there. I think that in full context, abstaining from sex for a time for the good of your marriage and family isn't forbidden by any of the verses you cite.
Anyway. Thank you for contributing to the conversation.
Excellent, Von! It is a great first statement. I appreciate the light hand on the commentary and exposition. I can't think of anything that you missed. You highlighted areas that I would have missed. This is a keeper.
I know how you value it, and so I always try and comment on your essays. Because I appreciate your writing (and I, too, generally have something to say).
I really liked seeing the Onan/not wasting seed conversation batting second. I think this is intentionally misunderstood in English-based cultures. The very word "onanism" as a synonym for male masturbation is wrong. Onan was struck dead because (drawing on another English cultural piece), "every sperm is sacred." The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and we've gotten away with ignoring this for a very long time. I think that a very strong case can be made that the destruction in Western culture in the past 60 years stems largely from birth control. It has rotted so much, both without and within families. I look at my own family. 17 cousins, over half of whom went to Catholic universities. Not a one of us has more than three kids. And two (both of whom went to Catholic university) are proud of their homosexual children.
Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the quiverful movement? Your arguments seem very similar to theirs.
I believe in general that there are arguments are biblically correct but they’re almost always completely and totally misunderstood. I have a quiver full post on my site.
Misunderstood by them or by others outside the group?
I wouldn’t quite call us a group per se. But no, I mean by people outside of it. When I wrote my post which you can read called always open one of my big goals was to very carefully explain what I meant. You do a little bit of it in your post as well when you talk about the fact that it doesn’t mean, that you have to have sex only when you’re possibly going to create a child or something, but a lot of people who understand the quiver movement think that you need to go to every possible extreme in order to make sure that you have the maximum number of children possible.
As opposed to a perfectly normal and happy and healthy and routine sex life where you don’t do anything to prevent having children. The words I use instead of quill tend to be always open. That you should be always open to having children. And with that I condemn both the general protestant , pension to our birth control, and I also condemn the Catholic idea of natural family planning.
My biggest problem with the quiverful movement is that it seems awfully hard on the marriage, particularly the woman. I don't have a verse I can pull out of my back pocket on this that makes it crystal clear, but it seems to be to be within St. Paul's understanding of marriage ("love your wives as Christ loved the Church") to decide not to have sex for a time because your wife is overwhelmed, exhausted, or grieving. The Scriptures are pretty clear that fertility is an important part of the sexual act and should never be actively thwarted, we agree there. I think that in full context, abstaining from sex for a time for the good of your marriage and family isn't forbidden by any of the verses you cite.
Anyway. Thank you for contributing to the conversation.
Yeah, I think if all you are looking for is ‘isn’t forbidden’ then you have a case. That is not the case I was making.
https://vonwriting.substack.com/p/always-open
And thus we run straight into the real difference I think you and I have here-- whether or not Sola Scriptura is a valid position.
If Scripture alone is enough, or if you need more context.
Full confession, both of which I used to agree with.
You're more aligned with the radical traditionalist Catholics on this. They also have very similar arguments.
Excellent, Von! It is a great first statement. I appreciate the light hand on the commentary and exposition. I can't think of anything that you missed. You highlighted areas that I would have missed. This is a keeper.
What would you like to see as a second statement?
There you go, trying to get the conversation started. :)
That's what I do.
And, seriously, I think a huge part of my audience has come from conversations.
Me, too. I could relate, as I know how hard it is to get conversations going on my substack.
Not anymore. All you have to do is start a letter exchange with me. Cause I don't give up, I don't stop, I keep writing :)
I know how you value it, and so I always try and comment on your essays. Because I appreciate your writing (and I, too, generally have something to say).
I really liked seeing the Onan/not wasting seed conversation batting second. I think this is intentionally misunderstood in English-based cultures. The very word "onanism" as a synonym for male masturbation is wrong. Onan was struck dead because (drawing on another English cultural piece), "every sperm is sacred." The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and we've gotten away with ignoring this for a very long time. I think that a very strong case can be made that the destruction in Western culture in the past 60 years stems largely from birth control. It has rotted so much, both without and within families. I look at my own family. 17 cousins, over half of whom went to Catholic universities. Not a one of us has more than three kids. And two (both of whom went to Catholic university) are proud of their homosexual children.
Did you read my ‘Always Open’ posts?
https://vonwriting.substack.com/p/always-open
https://vonwriting.substack.com/p/contraception-is-immoral